Dentist in Pflugerville, TX gives patients a reason to smile

Welcome to the remarkable dentist podcast with me Fred Joyal where I interview amazing dental practice owners digging into their successes and failures, their insight and hindsight’s, getting their views on where dentistry is going and discovering what it took for them to become remarkable.[

F: Hi I am Fred Joyal – welcome to the remarkable dentist podcast. Once again I am talking to a really interesting and successful dentist who has a great story. I am really interested in hearing his journey from being in an associate to ownership at a very, fairly rapid pace. His name is Dr. Jordan Tucker, and we are going to be talking to him and finding out how this happened and all the challenges that he faced. Jordan welcome to the podcast.

J: Hey Fred thanks for having me.

F: so you are – you may be the youngest dentist I have had on the podcast which is great because I think young dentist are very interested in what the heck they are going to do when they get out of dental school, so I am going to ask you first what got you interested in dentistry to start with.

J: Yeah absolutely, what got me interested in dentistry I would say was the hands on approach – working with your hands, the people skills interaction with people, on a daily basis – multiple different people, and the sense of satisfaction in being in control of your, career, of your life. Not a whole lot of careers offer all those things, and dentistry was the one that hit the nail on the head for me.

F: And so there is no family background of dentistry? No parents no grandparents that cornered you in this direction?

J: Yeah I wish that would have made it a lot easier

F:(laughs)

J: When it came to ownership yeah but no, my grandfather on my mother’s side was an old country doctor, and my grandfather on my father’s side was a coal miner, and so not a whole lot of dentistry background there at all.

F: Now when you say country doctor we are talking about house calls kind of guy right?

J: House calls-

F: In a small town, give me the dimensions this is West Virginia?

J: Correct, very small town I would say I would n teen know a number to put on it now became when he was threw a the pinnacle when the coal mines were operating in the town was hustling and bustling and today there are very few people remaining there. but the type of Doctor that goes to your house, delivers a baby in the middle of the night, got paid with eggs and apple pies, and woke up and did it all again the next day.

F: Not bad currency when you get down to it

J: (laughs)

F: But it hard to build a retirement plan with that! That is so great – that is such an interesting time here in America that, that was happening, but so from that, now it was your father’s father that was a coal miner?

J: Correct.

F: Okay so your dad became a professional though did he not?

J: Exactly. So my father is an attorney.

F: Now that is pretty good transition, so that is another great American story, where th3e dad works hard at- that is about as hard as you can work coal mining.

J: Right

F: And his son manages to get himself through law school, and become a successful professional and now his son is in the greatest profession of all time – dentistry.

J: Yeah! Absolutely.

F: So where did you go to school give me the educational background on you.

J: Sure yeah, so born and raised in West Virginia, undergrad was at Shepherd University – played football there actually. And dental school was at West Virginia university, and as far as the education goes – Shepherd was a very liberal arts type of school, and not the huge class room size that you would get at a lot of major universities which you know playing football and trying to get the grades to get into dental school I think would have proved much greater of a challenge at a classroom who you are one of300 kids vs. having the opportunities to speak with the teacher and get extra help if needed, an those are more difficult clauses, that would not be an option when you are just a number in the classroom or you are just a number vs. knowing the students by name, and then West Virginia university dental school was – I would say fairly smaller class sizes as well compared to other dental schools. We had a thing – 54, 53 kids when we started in my class, and great hands on experience. I don’t know what it is like at other dental school was but West Virgins has a reputation for not having the best teeth!

F: (laughs)

J: And what better place to go to fix teeth than a place like that right? So I graduated dental school with lot of experience, doing multiple procedures that a lot of dental students don’t get the opportunity to perform at dental school so very fortunate to have that background.

F: Yeah I bet last year 2020 was a terrible year for a lot of dentists who were D4s and because their residency – they get very little practice, a lot of them. Some of them you know did maybe a couple of crowns – you probably did 30 40, you did extractions you did partials you got real good hands on training, because of the size of the school.

J: Absolutely.

F: A lot of dentist are getting that when they become an associate they really don’t develop the skills and the experience of dealing with that many different types of cases, because everybody is a little different and if you are presented with people with neglect you are going to learn something, so it is very interesting that, that was your pathway. So then you – well you want to, you are in good shape, so I am believing this football scholarship next year somewhere, that helped you with your college is that true?

J: Yes absolutely – it was on scholarship. Dual scholarship actually – football scholarship so athletic as well as an academic scholarship. There is a programed in West Virginia called HSTA – stands for health science technology academy. Long story short, it gives students – an opportunity to have all their tuition both undergrad and professional school paid for if you go in state for school, and there are certain requirements and measures you have to meet through high school and college, in order to have that granted to you – but very fortunate to be part of that programme and have that opportunity.

F: Yeah that sounds fantastic got it. It is so interesting that how sometimes that specific thing exists that gives you just a better track. Just a higher quality education, I look back personally – my high school was so rigorous in my education that by the time I got to college, I was way better educated than the freshman and sophomores in – that were in college, and it was in Boston College and it was you know not a community college or something like that it was a hard school, but it was an opposite of what you are talking about – my first class was 400 500 people, in my freshman year in that class. The professor was tiny little figure in the front of the room I never got oth know him. I actually switched to the university of Rhode Island after 2 years and really got to know professors they actually became my friends a lot of times and that made an enormous difference in my education. We are going to circle back to some of the people that influenced you along the way – but I want to hear what you came out and you became an associate so talk about the.

J: Sure when I graduated dental school looking for associate opportunities and ended up in Greenville North Carolina where I wore for a year and a group practice. There were 3 officers, 3 owners – doctors, and my self – as an associate – and I worked out of 2 offices. One of the offices were very similar to my experience at West Virginal dental school where it was a rural area – where the patients more or less were like hey doc if you are not going to do this, then I am not driving all the way to Greenville to have it done, you just have to pull the tooth out – that kind of thing, so we got a lot of great experience there, and that environment – doing all kinds of different procedures you kind of figure out what you like, what you don’t like and you know you start to think what your time is worth and not doing a procedure just because you can but doing a procedure that is going to be something used several times, and great invaluable experience on every facet of dentistry from the time there with the clinical and procedure side in that town and then my associate ship.

F: And then you jumped to another practice – you moved again, right? In your practice in Morgan town?

J: Yes I did I moved back home closer to home, and practice in Morgan town where I was introduced to Doctor Robert Martino and his offices, there and was introduced to from a management and the way that they operated practice and from an employee side of things to the patient side of things, it was a complete night in the hay swish from what I had grown used to in North Carolina and I was impressed! I think that is the best word there – very impressed I was happy to be a part of it, and it is where the seed was planted in my head that if and when I ever become and owner that this is a good way to do business, this is a good way to operate things form a day to day stand point.

F: Yeah the systems that forms you brings in – just having coaching. A lot of dentists don’t learn early on, the value of coaching which is kind of unfortunate became them – you don’t have to readmit the wheel on a lot of this stuff it has been done, there is a lot of confusion people talk about being a dentists – you are an Entrepreneur. No an entrepreneur kind of invents a business pretty much from scratch you may be pulling things from various things in the environment, that he or she has learned but they have to create a lot.

J: Sure

F: Dentistry it is all been done right, these are just finding out how to do it right, you don’t have to be an entrepreneur, you can just get some coaching now. I am going to reflect back on your foo ball days I think you had – d you have what you felt was strong coaching in your high school years?

J: Absolutely, yes in high school an even more so in college. In high school I was we had great coaching we were also blessed with number of very successful athletes that were just happened to be born in the same town and in the same year and play on the same team and achieved a lot of successes together – of course a great coach brings all those individuals together to perform as a team and then in college as well, Coach Monicare at Shepherd – excuse me, has a record for – you have to double check the history books here but for most active winnings coach among all levels in college football something along those lines, very instrumental very inspirational individual and that I was honored to have been coached by, and left a huge impression on me and how the right way to do things from a team standpoint, and those you know are things the you put your blood sweat and tears into something for a certain amount of time and where you like it or not that is a part of you, and I will let you this – being the boss of a lot of females, you learn that you cannot maybe handle things, you have to kind of dance around the wording and the delivery of how you would say things compared to a football team obviously, but the main idea and principles are the same.

F: Yeah I am picturing that verbiage would not fly as well at what coach would be yelling at you on the side lines and in the lineup you know. So-

J: Luckily I was not the guy that got yelled at very often! But when I did I learned from it and made sure I did what I could to not let it happen again.

F: Yeah so at that – that is great! So now you are working in Dr. Martino’s he had multiple practices at that time correct?

J: Yes he did – multiple practices and the way it was set up – you are very what is the word – chaperoned when you got started in terms of there was multiple different owner doctors that were great at certain areas of dentistry and if you wanted to learn more about doing root canals, we will go to this office and this town and you will spend a week with Doctor so and so and he will walk you through you know how he was able to be successful, doing root canals the way he does and if you want to learn about implants – we have another doctor in another town that is really good at that and goes to spend a week there and if you want to know about business, give Rob a call and he will tell you all about it so what he knows and what he recommends and what another invaluable experience to draw upon when you know I was taking into consideration the future endeavors of being a dental office owner.

F: Now that was – was bobby practicing at that point or had he stopped already?

J: How long have you known Martino?

F: Probably 10 years at this point.

J: How long of those 10 years had been practicing?

F: None

J: (laughs)

F: No he will tell you as a dentist – I am a terrific CEO he is very passionate and very good at the business side of things – he is just a very smart business man, but he also, he learned a lot he saw what systems worked and he incorporated them into his practices but I love this idea that you tape into this thing where you can just rotate through offices and get this very advanced very localized and very focused clinical training, that is an accelerated program if I have ever done. That is certainty a blessing and it puts you in a position where you could branch out and start your own office which is the next step right, you finally decided that had to happen and there were a couple of factors involved in that correct.

J: Oh my yes, and I would say that being in a position where you are a dentist taking time out of your day to show another dentist these things, I think is a factor of success, allow certain opportunity to people, one of those is time and you know you can go through the busy hustle and bustle of the day and not take time for anybody else, or anything else other that what is on your schedule and what is going on in the office and that day – but when you can almost turn around and reach back and help the next guy come along kind of thing there is a lot to be said about that and that was huge! And just a representation of doing things the right way how to do things the right way so yes, took those experiences and moved to Texas and was looking to become an office owner after a brief stint at a corporate office, a brief stint – a year and a half almost a little longer. Almost 2 years and was a another night and day flip from doing things that I am impressed by working with this – I am impressed by to – working in and environment that was it seemed – unorganized very hectic and stressful and maybe motivation were not in the right place that they should have been from a lot of people that were making decision and very eye opening into hey – dentistry is not just this single entity and this is what it is or this is what it is not, it can be a plethora of multiple different things and your only control is that you are the owner of the office and that is the main Take away that I got from that so, if I wanted to do things a certain way – hat was only going to happen if I was the one in control making decision so started looking for an office in Austin and ended up just outside Austin in a town called Pflugerville and took a great practice the stared in 2008 and was sold to a corporate office for about almost 2 years and they take private proactive patients and you throw in a corporate business model, and the result of that is a lot left.

F: Yeah sure

J: So I took over a lot of these patients that had already left and it was more of a novo start up. I rebranded the office and completely changed everything from the colour of the walls to how we were going business and the types of dentistry that we were doing and here we are today! But that was an adventure you know from day one oth now, that I am sure we can touch on specifically.

F: We are going to peel that one for sure, but another interesting thing that happened to you is you got to work with Bobby Martino, that really sees how many things were done really well, and then you also – this is very instructive to go see things not done well, I mean my experience in business – before I created 800 dentist my partner and I we have worked in great businesses with great bosses, and bad business with bad bosses, really badly run. Both of those things are incredibly instructive as you build your owned business because it is almost like dating. You find out who you don’t want to date just as much as whom you would like to be with. And so – that is a very good – as much as you probably did no enjoy a lot of that in the year and a half or so in the corporate environment, you pull a lot of information out of that that you are going to carry with you for all your days basically. So but we didn’t – why are you in Texas?

J: Yeah so I ended up coming to Texas with my fiancé who graduated medical school and her residency placed her here in Texas so I came along for the ride and once we were here and kind of laid the land and realized this is not a bad place to be and we deiced to plant some root and buy a practice and do some permanent things. Thank goodness that the time when we moved here compared to where it was, because I don’t know if you have seen the housing market in Austin rea lately, but I could not afford to buy my house now if I had to.

F: (laughs) yeah that is because everyone is moving from California to Austin, and we think a million dollar house is like a free house.

J: (laughs) right.

F: You can’t get a decent condo here in Los Angeles for that so they are selling their places and moving there – and everyone is like yes I will overbid this house, and I will feel like I am underbidding s we have kind of exploded the market so good timing there. So is your wife going to be a GP or what is her specialty?

J: Yeah she finished up actually just this past spring in emergency medicine so she works in the emergency room where the patients don’t – the patients need her right, it is a very different perspective form how she nails patients down to how I handle patients. More or less dentistry is viewed upon as elective more or less and an emergency room they are there usually because they are having one of the worst days of their lives.

F: Yeah she sees a lot more gunshot wounds that you do probably

J: Oh yeah, I hope I never see a gnu shot wound! (Laughs)

F: So that is terrific because 2 great professions, that but there is a huge contracts in terms of her career, but so she dragged you to Texas because you have got to go where you have got to go! From your residency right, that is my understanding of medical residency so and you have got portable skills.

J: Right

F: So there you are in Texas – what happened? How did it go?

J: Right well-

F: How did you pay for it? Were you able to bomb money is that your starter? People want to know how the heck did you buy a practice these days –

J: Yeah so greet question. Same as the housing market. The same ing was true at the dental market at the time, where corporate private equity funded, corporate offices were burin any office that was worth a darn, and cash was flown right and paying cash above the asking price kind of out competing the solo dentists, who were looking at that same office and it came down to what the sellers motivating factor was – if it was just – my retirement, they didn’t car who bought it right or hey if this is more to me than just dollar signs then there were other facts that went into those decisions, but so with this office because a lot of patients left and it was not cash flowing, a bank would not fund that purchase so we ended up going solo financing and working out a note from that perspective and I can say that – you know what it paid for the office vs. what it is cash flowing now, was absolutely one hundred percent not easy to get it there! But absolutely 100 percent worth it in the long run! Yes so you basically bought a practice that was unappealing to corporate because it had hit – it had been what corporate declined already. Corporate had come in-

F: It was owned by corporate I bought it from corporate.

J: You bought it out of corporate that is a great move, I love that.

F: Right,

J: But after that it was smooth sailing, it kind of all fell into place right?

F: Yeah! Absolutely not! (Laughs) I think you know there is you learn a lot about yourself too because you are an individual and you rely on yourself for a lot of things, you know going from college and your grades – you can’t blame anyone but yourself right if you are not making As. On the football field you can’t blame anyone but yourself if you did not know the playbook or if you did not prepare for it, you know the team you are playing hat week or you did not work out hard enough on work outs. And then when it comes to a dental office you can’t do it all and I tried trust me! You cannot do it all you are so reliant on your team and the people around you and the culture everything. And that takes time, that takes time to specify what it is that you actually want, because you can go into it thinking one thing and you know the reality is something very differ from the idea of it, and you have to figure out that you want something completely differ from what you thought you wanted an then you need to have people around you who are better fittings than you are to do – to achieve what needs to be done, because if you are the be person for every job then why are you paying those people to do it? You know what I mean – so not settling for something that is less than you ideal, keeping faith and trust in the process and one day that – it all clicks. It all clicks.

F: So Gene Williams is your fortune coach.

J: Jennifer

F: Jennifer, okay yea – Gene is the one who recommended that I interview you so that is why I am thinking that.

J: I worked with Gene, I have worked with her indirectly thought Jennifer but ayah they are both phenomenal.

F: So did you bring them in right at the outset as you are acquiring the practice or did it, did you figure out you need them at a certain point?

J: Yeah so funny enough I did not know that I was experiencing the benefits of fortune management when I was working with Dr. Martino. You know never saw the coaches in office, never saw the where things were coming from I just knew that I liked their approached to the field and talked to Dr. Martino a lot in terms of the practices, which ones are good ones which ones are not – what are the key things to look for all those things when you are looking at buying a dental office and that is when he told me about fortune and where to move forward with them, I think it was the second month in, because when you start up a practice like that and you are not getting any working capital in for that kind of nature – you are looking at the bottom line very tightly and seeing these expenses are – you know caching almost seems like-

F: An extravagance.

J: Yeah right a privilege not a necessity – not a necessary expense and but, you know I have got some good advice along the way – and you can never pay too much for a good attorney, you can never pay too much for a good accountant, and coaching goes the same way, and so despite you know my inclination I went ahead the second month in and started coaching with Fortune and I am so grateful! So grateful that I made that decision, because going through the end of the 2019, end of 2020 and then everything that Covid impacted all of us, and what to do and where to look and resources and PPP and all the different things that were going on, if I did not have a resource and a team to help me thorough that , being a new practice owner as it was and not really knowing kind of what was going on, to being with before Covid that was a valuable resource to have and I can’t –I don’t think that would have, things would have shaken down the other side of Covid had I not considered that.

F: They had a very comprehensive playbook that they put into position very early on to help everybody through this, and the practices that apply they really came out strong, they wrote it out, and some of them had their best year – because of it.

J: Yeah absolutely.

F: So give me one of the challenges that you are acing now – a recent thing that has come up in operating our practice.

J: Ok let me see – couple of things. I would say 1 – when it comes to your team, titles don’t mean anything. Titles don’t mean anything just because someone calls themselves an office manager (laughs) does not mean that they are an office manager so that has been huge, as not what is the – quote from Winston Churchill, Trust but Verify. Right, trust but verify. Another challenge is staffing and in itself this market – I think it is nationwide that really lot of people are having trouble staffing and getting good staff and things like that nature – so that is always, that is the challenge that everybody is facing. My approach to that has been in this that good people like to work with other good people, and quite often I find that good employees are – feel very underappreciated and their efforts when they know that they are the hardest working individual and nobody else cares and that they are the ones that are going through the emotions and they are passionate about it and no one recognizes that an they just see them as one of the other you know clock bunch in and punch out and go about your day kind of thing, and if those people get an opportunity to work with other good people and they are genuinely appreciated for the hard work that they do, you can find them. You can get them on your team, and usually that is the referrals right because dentistry is so small – everyone, almost everyone in a certain town if you have been there for enough time, you know you hear and you know and you know who the good ones are and who the good ones are not and things you know the ball is in your court in terms of you know how you want to handle that, and handle that hiring approach and so we have different ways of doing that incentives for referral bonuses and things like that but I would say this – dentists that are listening to this, if you have good people under your team let them know, let them know that they are doing what is expected of them and leading and exceeding expectations and you are hap to have them on their team because just a thank you goes a long way. Does not have to be a huge bonus pay cheque or anything along those lines. People just like to known that they are appreciated and that their hard work does not go unnoticed.

F: Yeah I remember an office manger telling me this story – she worked for a dentist from about 24 years, and every day t the end of the day he thanked her from the work that she did that day without fail he could be on the phone and she would be walking out and he would say to the person he was talking to – hold on a minute, and he would say you know Angela thank you – another great day have a good night. She never forgot it – she eventually she retired she eventually went to work somewhere else and she went I don’t get that anymore and you notice it – oh yeah so she is feeling the gap, and she is feeling the absence of appreciation it is one of the foundational tools of creating a great culture and culture as you are saying – culture attracts quality people, and retains them – because it is even better if they have been at some place where they went like, yeah the money was alright but I was just never looking forward t get it – if you want to play for it – they can’t wait for Monday because they are going to see all their friends and-

J: Exactly,

F: and everybody is going to get a lot done on the day is going to go by like lightening and you know everybody feels good about what they have done and feels good about working together and that is so powerful and so much more essential in the down practice than a lot of other practices because you are in retail healthcare. You are dealing with people who are margin all sorts of choices based on how much they trust you, and how good they feel in the office. Feeling creatures wondering through the world you know and when you find a great dentist with a great team – you ace more treatment that is the economic reality of how people behave.

J: Exactly, exactly, patients don’t know good entry form bad dentistry – they just know if you hurt them and if they enjoy being there in that experience or not, it is a human nature – not, it is normal not oth enjoy being played back in a vulnerable position and have your head drilled on with sharp objects hat is normal and it is normal not to want oth strive to go to that.

F: Yea there is nothing weird about that.

J: Yes but if you can go and make the patient laugh a couple of times along the way – an make their financing easy on them and make them feel warm and welcome and cared about and even patients appreciating them, trusting you with their dental are because they have a choice, and just all those things it is rely easy to get over complicated in this industry I will tell you that, there are so many resources and answers of how to do things, and you can really overcomplicate it and you don’t have to try hard I struggle with that when I first got started coming from the experiences that I had and looking into, you don’t even have , like I said you don’t have to figure this out form the beginning but you can use a different playbook of all the other ways that people are doing things and figure out how best it works for you, what does not and what you want – stick to your vision and keep it simple. Don’t over complicate it, because when it is overcomplicated 1 it takes too long to explain it oth everyone else (laughs) and that is just time that is used up and in the end they don’t even understand it what did you again form that, right – so keep things simple and treat people the right way, patients in and team and everything else takes care of itself more or less.

F: So what do you think, do you think – what is next from your practice – do you envision big changes, gradual changes, multiple facilities what is the what is your 5 year vision?

J: Yeah great question and that has changed since you would ask me that question 6 months ago I would l have had a different answer. My original view point was multiple practices, I used to want to go down that road and what I am finding out is like I said I am complicating things and it is way less complicated when you all have one compressor to worry about blowing out than when you have 3 or 5, and you only have one office team to manage and deal with and employ as opposed to you know 5 differ entities working separately, 5 different team working separately and so what we are doing is that multi-specialty under one roof, so we have some specialists that come in, an oral surgeon, and Endodontist and we try to make it so that the patient does not have to leave our office for anything that they may want any – grantee there is going to be special occasions if you are going to require general anesthesia or some specific oral surgery or – you are going to have to get referred yea, but the majority of times we don’t have to do that we keep everything in house and try to make it a one stop shop for a lack of a better term. The newest thing is that we just added a few chairs and a Cerec, so that should – well who knows about the back up or the supply chain now when it is going to be delivered, but once it gets installed, looking forward to taking advantage of that for sure.

F: Yeah being able to make those crowns right there is going to be a game changer for you, I love the idea that you figured out what a lot of dentists learned the hard way which is 2 practices are a great way to work 2 as hard for the same money.

J: Yes (laughs) yes!

F: A multi-specialty is an augustly terrific way to go and it is very patient centered as you are saying, it is like that – make it so they don’t ever have to leave unless it is really something specific and you can explain. Look this is very complicated surgery this is going to require going to an oral surgeon for this or this root canal is something that I really want to send you to a specialist, a different specialist for. But you now technology is going to be part of it and then all of these individual specialists within the facility the more specialist you have there the more you can actually create the consolation with the patient, you can say look I am going to bring in our Endodontist right now and so she is going to talk to you just about why this needs to be done, suddenly they feel like – wow I have a team working for me to make me healthy – it is very powerful it gives them a lot t talk about when they go out. First it makes them loyal but then they are out there saying I have seen the new age of dentistry and it is fantastic – dr. Tucker has a whole different approach to it, and I love it and so good for you.

J: It speaks for itself, you know any patient hopefully who has being going to the dentist for a majority of their lives, they won’t take long to realize the difference in one office compared to another – it does not take long. If you are left in a room by yourself for 30 minutes and then in a quiet room by yourself facing the wall, no idea what is going on or they forgot that you were even there you know we have all had those experiences somewhere along the way in our lives. You know, vs. someone who is making you feels like you are the most important person in that entire facility, that I mean that speaks for itself and patients can see the difference you don’t have to do a lot oth let them know that you know, good work, and do things the right way – speaks for itself and people realize it.

F: Ok so what would you talk to somebody so somebody is a D4, coming out of dental school they are a D4 now, so right now we are talking and it is mid-October so whenever they are watching this person, or people you know our time frame and they are saying – what do I do, what would you say to somebody that went to your school – like if they bought you back to West Virginia dental school, what would you say to the class, what would be the one or two things that you made sure they understood?

J: Oh yeah I would say – number 1 you have to get your hands dirty and you have to do, try as much you can anything that is at your disposal , West Virginia is really – there is not a whole lot that you can’t get your hands on when it comes to dental procedures there because you have to figure it out, what you like, what you don’t like what you are good at what you are not good at and what better time to figure that out when it is not under your license and in your liability, but it is a learning environment, where if things don’t go as planned, the consequences are a lot fewer than otherwise than when you are a practicing dentist and then that is the other consequence of that. If you don’t learn those things at dental school right then you are – it is outside in some really specialized CE you are more or less not going oth attempt to do anything that you are not confident and comfortable with doing, so you have got to get your hands dirty and do as much as you can to figure out the trajectory that you like to go in and in the dental industry after that, go to a place that you don’t want to be forever, as an associate, and the reason why I say that is restriction and things like that. If you love that place and you want to buy an office and be an owner there, well with a restrictive covenant that is going to be a lot more difficult to do as opposed to just figuring things out and taking all those experiences back to a place that you want to do full time and so that would be the second thing – find a good associate ship that you are going to have some guidance right and a lot of them say that they will have guidance and they will guide you and teach you and so forth and so on, and then it turns into they don’t have time. They are busy and-

F: They just put you on the assembly line and so yeah, that is great advice I – and a little bit counterintuitive. Let’s just explain to those who don’t understand the restrictive covenant as if you are in dental school, when you come out and become an associate, you are not going to be able to you are going to sign an agreement and it is going to prevent you form taking patients with you, usually in working within a carina radius of the practice, as part of the deal which is a fairly reasonable thing to ask, as there are very few associate agreements that don’t ask for those 2 things.

J: Right

F: So they are restrictive convenes in the agreement, so very good little piece of advice I have not actually heard that but I really love that.

J: (Laughs)

F: Don’t do your associate ship right where you want to work the next 20 years! Because it can

J: It is counterintuitive!

F: You are going to pick right outside where you want to work, so-

J: Exactly!

F: So Jordan thank you so much this has been a fascinating story and I think there is so much for people to glee from this and I look forward to seeing where you go from here, and when you start to incorporate more technology and fee more challenges love to get you back on and do a checkup. Do an exam and cleaning of your trajectory. So thank you very much for your time and I wish you continued success, and you know thank you for your 2 fortune coaches that recommended to bring you on because I think this just made a terrify show. Thank you and I will see you soon I am sure!

J: Absolutely, thanks for having me on Fred, I appreciate the opportunity and any 6 month checkups you want to do, I will make sure I am ready for them! (Laughs)

F: Yes good I don’t want you to go 2 3 years without recall!

J: Sounds familiar!

F: (laughs) so everyone out there – if you liked the podcast, share it subscribe and recommend it to people, and then the rest of the time keep on becoming remarkable!